Beautiful Naivety...It's the Same Product with Guest Coach Kyle Gookins

Today's Play: Our guest reflects on his experience speaking to MLS Academy 8th and 9th graders about the slim chances of making it to the professional ranks and the importance of prioritizing academics for college recruitment. The discussion delves into the role of social media in recruiting, advising players to be mindful of their online presence. They explore alternative divisions and governing bodies like NAIA, NJCAA, and community colleges, highlighting the financial advantages and competitive opportunities they offer. Ultimately, the conversation emphasizes the importance of finding a balanced college experience that fosters academic, athletic, and personal growth, rather than just chasing a Division 1 dream.

Today's Coach: Kyle Gookins is a former Division I Head Men's Soccer Coach who currently is the Director of My College Soccer, a college soccer recruiting consulting agency. He has over 23 years of coaching experience at every level of youth and amateur soccer and has also been a US Soccer Scout for the USSF Youth national teams.

To note: The "head count" and "equivalency" scholarship models discussed in this episode are currently in flux as the NCAA determines roster limits in the aftermath of the House v. NCAA settlement.  

To learn more about Bryant College Coaching, and download our new e-book, click here or go to www.bryantcollegecoaching.com

Picking Teams: A Playbook for Parents is produced by: Amy Bryant and Sasha Melamud

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Transcript

Amy Bryant: 0:05

Amy, welcome to picking teams a podcast that dives into the playbooks of seasoned coaches. I'm your host. Amy Bryant, a 23 year veteran college coach, and my guests hail from the professional college and youth together, we'll share real stories from our coaching experiences to empower you as parents to be positive forces in your child's sports journey. Our guest today is Kyle Gookins. Kyle is a former division one head men's soccer coach who currently is the director of my college soccer, a college soccer recruiting consulting agency. He has over 23 years of coaching experience at every level of youth and amateur soccer, and has also been a US Soccer scout for the USSF youth national teams. Yes. So tell me about this, this latest conversation.

Kyle Gookins: 1:03

So I was at an MLS Academy meeting with you 15 so you have eighth graders and ninth graders in a room, and every single one of them have aspirations of playing pro, because that's they're in an MLS Academy. They think, you know, they see the first team. They see how they see the direct pathway, like there is a direct pathway to be a pro. And, you know, I start talking college soccer, and I can see some of them just kind of like staring off into space. And I was like, so I have to kind of put some data out there that look guys, like, the reality of you all making it Pro is very, very, very, very, very slim. I said, I hope you do all do. I would love it. I'm here to help you. I want all of you to receive your dreams, but, like, there's different routes. And so then I'd pop up the academic piece, and I'm like, you know, if you think your talent alone is going to get you, like, if you think, all right, yeah, maybe I don't get a pro, but I get to, I'll play college. I'm going to be a really good player. Someone's just going to notice me and I'm going to get recruited. I was like, That could work. That's some, that's a few people's recruiting stories, but the majority it's not. And think of how many other kids there are like you. And so if you slack off on like this academic piece, and you just kind of, especially when you're online, they're all doing online school, and some of them are not even there with host families. So they're, you're asking 14 year olds to 13 and 14 year olds to be relying on the whole unaccountable to themselves. And we've all been 1314, and I was like, Look, if you you know not to be like the bear bad news. But if you don't focus as a freshman in high school, like it could come back to bite you some colleges like the best you know that UCLA can come after you, and they'll say, I'm sorry, but you know, your freshman grades can't get you in. Yeah, no matter how good you kick a ball, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how fast you run. Doesn't, doesn't, doesn't matter. So I was like, you know, it's the whole piece, this recruiting piece, especially in the pathway to playing college. It's not just how well you perform as an athlete, it's how well you do academically. It's also what you are as a person. Yeah, I think like, you have to understand, like they'll look at you, you know, soccer wise first, but then they just kind of looked at me, and then they, then they asked about social media. Well, do coaches look at social media? I was like, 100% and how else will they find out about a player? You know, they're going to talk to your coaches, and then they're going to do as much research as they can. If you put a lot out there on social media, that's a lot for them to go through. So like, I can see their eyes, like, huge, you know, these eighth and ninth graders, like, it's like, I'm not trying to scare you. I'm just telling you that, like, you know how hard you work on the soccer field is how hard you should also work in this in the classroom, like it should just be the game. So it was, it was definitely eye opening for them. They were just kind of like, what we know, should we even start this process? Like, what do we do? And I was like, You guys are in such a information age that you can just do research on any school you want at any time, right? Like, that's amazing. Like, right? Do research, watch games like, learn about schools. Like, understand those things. You know, gone are the days where you got sent a media guide in the mail that you spend room about. So I had to kind of tell them, like, you know, you got to do a little bit of research ahead of time. So they were like, okay, so I was asking, like, what would you what do you what do you think? How can you start? They were just like, we could Google, like, the soccer rankings. I'm like, that's how I would start. But yeah, so what I would do go out, who are the best teams in the sport I play? All right? Those are the schools I want to go to, yep, and then let's look at the roster and see where those kids played. And exactly what I said, I was like, did they recruit any players from your team in the past? Like, did you, you know? And it was like, do they recruit Americans? Like, is it highly foreign, especially in certain sports, it can be very foreign dominated. So they just kind of were like, okay, yeah. They were like, you know, it was, it was an interesting conversation with, you know, ninth graders that were like, I was like, I know you're early in the process, but it's never too early to just start to research on your own. Yeah, I was telling them. I was like, I like I like to coin the phrase like, active discovery, because, like, if you, if you just think talent alone is going to get you there, that's passive discovery. That's just like, my soccer is going to speak for itself, or my volleyball, it is. It's just going to take care of it, and that that can happen. But it's very passive. It's very like, you know where I say, like, take an active role, do some research, figure out,

Amy Bryant: 5:44

yep. So yeah. I mean, yeah, I always tell the kids that they have to be their own best advocate in the process as well. They're just sitting back and hoping that a coach is going to find them. Then there. Doesn't matter how strong they are. It doesn't matter how good they are. They're they're really leaving a lot to chance.

Kyle Gookins: 6:06

There's also the fact that, like, some coaches will, and not all, some coaches are very good recruiters, but some coaches will look at a team and go, like, I'm not sure any of those kids would be interested in high school, absolutely. And so, like, they won't even take the chance. You know, coaches are used to hearing like, No, I'm not interested. Or not. Or, you know, you talk to the coach, Hey, would anyone be interested in the school from this area? Whereas, like, you don't know I was telling kids, like, you showing interest is already like, okay, that's one less step I have to take as a coach. I know this player is interested. So I would say, like, if you take the first step, show that you're interested, they're probably going to watch you. Yeah. Like, all right, I don't have to convince this player to come to the school. They already want to come.

Amy Bryant: 6:52

Yep, no. I mean, that's so true. I was just talking to a tennis player about this, a male tennis player, and he happens to be, you know, just below the cusp of getting some really impressive d1 schools to talk to him, but also just above the cusp of where maybe some lower mid major schools would, you know, would feel comfortable reaching out to him. And so I think that those Lower Mid majors, you know, he's like, I can get so and so to call me back, but I can't get so and so to call me back the lower mid major. And I'm like, it's because they think that you're, you know, they might think that you're not even interested in them. So you've got to do the work and let them know, Hey, I am interested in you, and particularly when it comes to money. And if there's, you know, there's scholarships involved, if, you know, if, if you want to get that money, you can't be looking necessarily at a reach school. You gotta be looking at a school where maybe you are going to be one of the better kids.

Kyle Gookins: 7:54

Yeah it's like those when you're going, I always tell people, like, when you're going to start the process and you start to kind of lay out, like, right? What is important in this play college sports? Like, just put a list of, like, All right, here are my needs and here are my wants. Like, if like, you just said, like, you hit like the hot button is, like, if scholarship money is in need, you're probably gonna your dream schools are not gonna get crossed off pretty quickly, like, right? Because you'll know, quickly, if they want to, they're going to tell you. So it's like, even reach schools that may be like, alright, we need to look at other schools that are closer within reach. Or, you know, like you said, a lower mid major, or sometimes dropping a division, like, if that financial is a big, is a big deal for you that, all right, like, what, you know, that's a need. I can't, I can't take away that need. But, like, all right, what are some, you know, what are some wants I'm going to sacrifice, like, location, division, size of school, things like that. So it's like, I think, like, having those needs and wants as you go into that process, then you then you can go, like, alright, it's easier for me to navigate and and then be your best advocate. Like, Alright, maybe I need to pursue these Lower Mid majors more so they don't genuinely interested. Because, you're right, they're like, alright, am I gonna waste my time with this guy that's like, you know, probably just sending out emails and then gonna end up at this school, at this school. So,

Amy Bryant: 9:18

right, yeah. And, you know, not only dropping divisions, but also considering other governing bodies too. I mean, if we're talking about the divisions in the NCAA, we should also explore, you know, Naia, there's great financial opportunities there, NJCAA, or even the California Community Association, the prices of those junior college programs are really something worth exploring. And then, you know, lot of scholarships these days, especially in equivalency sports, are back loaded scholarships, so you're really not looking at money, significant money to your junior or senior year. Anyways, if you go to a junior college, community college, first couple years, then you become a little more eligible for significant money junior year transferring.

Kyle Gookins: 10:08

It's so true. And I think you said something I don't think people realize, is, like you said, where, like, college coaches know these things equivalency. So there's equivalency sports, then there's 10 pound sports. So like, talk more about, like, the equivalency, or like, what that means for people, like, really, because people don't just think like a scholarship to scholarship. They don't Right,

Amy Bryant: 10:27

right? Well, so there's only six sports in the NCAA that are head count sports. That's it. Football's one of them. FBS. Football gets 85 full head counts, scholarships, full full scholarship, full rides for all those you either you either get it or you don't get it exactly, exactly. And then the rest of the equivalency sports are all women's sports, or, well, there's men's basketball as well. So sorry, there's men's basketball. And then the rest of them are women's sports, because they're trying to with Title Nine, we have to, you know, remain equitable. So all the women's sports have to keep up with those 85

Kyle Gookins: 11:06

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I think that's what you know. I think most you know, like, I deal with a soccer ball like that. Like, could you get a 4x scholarship? Yes. Is it likely? No, probably not in the, yeah, especially not your first year. No, I do send, like, back loaded. So I think some people don't realize, like, yeah, they may offer you, like, probably next, if nothing, your freshman year, but they like, sophomore, junior, senior year, they'll look at it as, like, a four year plan. It's like, here's how we can really help you. So it's like, you, I think you mentioned, like, the California, community California community colleges are incredible, especially in the soccer world, because I have a close friend that I played with who coaches that one of them I'm pretty sure they just passed something where it's free for California residents.

Amy Bryant: 11:54

I think you're right, yeah, right, yeah.

Kyle Gookins: 11:56

So that's like, a no brainer, like, oh, I can play two years for free, and then, like, go somewhere like that

Amy Bryant: 12:05

And then there's automatic transfer in, the automatic transfer in, and it's into the UCs, right, yeah, and they're so competitive to get into as a first year. So it's like, you know, for coaches working that system at a UC, they've got, they've got an automatic feeder system. As juniors, kids are getting two years to really, you know, grow, develop, become great teammates, all that good stuff, and then they don't even have to work with admissions to get them in to the school. As juniors, it's like the winner

Kyle Gookins: 12:39

So true. And having, you know, every coach would look for that into like, okay, that's this is an easier route to get people in to the school, like you said to the automatic computer system totally. And I think people should, you know, look outside of divisions. That's so important. I think NAIA is, is also a really good one to look at. Yeah, no, I had lunch with a coach at the MLS Academy I was at. I was like, oh, you know, I want to meet this guy in Chatham. And I asked he's, he's poor, he's from Ireland. But he was like, I played NAIA. I loved it. Had a great time. Like, he's like, I didn't know. It was kind of like a beautiful naivety of like, I didn't know what NCAA or NAIA was. I didn't care. Right, problem here with domestic players is they know the difference. And NAIA is not NCAA. It's not on march back. It's it's not, you know, in these big, these big conferences that are out there, football and basketball and so, you know, they will automatically cast judgment to it. But like when you break it down, you just look at it, they offer pretty much the same product. It's just a different governing body,

Amy Bryant: 13:43

different governing body, same product. And most of the schools are smaller schools that offer incredible academic support for the student athletes. You know, I liken NIH Division Two, NCAA Division two. There's a lot of similarities there in terms of the smaller schools and sports systems and the resources, but great options that people should be exploring. Kyle, have you had any experience with the USCAA at all?

Kyle Gookins: 14:19

Very small, but a little bit, yes, a little bit. Have you

Amy Bryant: 14:24

the only experience I've had? There's a very active coach here in the south where I actually, I think he just moved to Division Three, and he's, he's, he's really great at all of the, you know, acnl soccer tournaments around talking to all the boys, and every single boy that I've worked with that's a male soccer player has told me that they've heard from this coach at the school, you know? So he's a great recruiter. And the guys are like, well, I don't, you know. I don't understand. What are they playing? Like? Well, it's the USDA. What is it the United States College Athletic Association, like a

Kyle Gookins: 15:03

little, yeah, it's different. But I've not, I've only had conversations with a few coaches. I've never dealt with any clients and like, help players get there. I mean, I think it's a great opportunity for people that want to when you like, I said, when you break it down to like, what what they're offering. It's the same product, yep, well, the different body

Amy Bryant: 15:26

and and when there's the opportunity to win, because they're competing against only schools in the USDA, which isn't entirely true, but the national championship, they would be competing only get schools in the USDA their regular season they are competing against NCAA, Nai, you know, NJCAA, any, any, any school is going to compete against whoever they can get

Kyle Gookins: 15:51

whoever they schedule, right? Something games against people realize it just doesn't count towards, like, whatever that national championship, right going to but like, I mean, I personally played Division Two in California, and I got recruited by both divisions, division one and Division two. And when I went through my needs and wants, my needs were like, I wanted to try to win something like you just mentioned, like you have the opportunity to win. I wanted to win. So I I went to a school that had just won a national championship at Division Two, they wanted, like, two years before I got there. So I was like, well, here's a chance for me to play in NCAA tournaments where, like, these other division ones, yeah, like, I could go play Division I could say, like, yeah, I played Division One soccer, but the chances of me going to the NCAA were slid. Like, probably wouldn't have done it, and I may not have played a lot my freshman year. And that was another, like, need for me so. And this is a funny story. I asked it was between one division one school and then Division two. So I ended up playing. And I went on my visit to the division the vision one school, and I was chatting to the coach. It was his first year at the school, and he was, I love the guy. He was such a good guy. Like, recruited me early. I was telling him. I was like, you know, I'm being recruited by this other school. What are your thoughts on? Like, division one versus Division two? He was like, in men's soccer, top 10, division two would be the top 20 Division one. So I wouldn't worry about it. So I was like, you're basically selling me to this other school. He's like, I'm just being honest. Like, he's like, I'm just telling you the truth. Like, the top schools in any division would be the top schools in Division like, that's just how it works. He's like, the difference is, like, outside of the top 100 in Division One is still really competitive, like, they can still beat you where, like, sometimes in Division Two, at least in the men's soccer world, he's like, you can have some games that'll be blowouts. He's like, you just don't see as many blowouts in the division one game. And I was like, Okay. And then I even said, like, I'm a little hesitant, because this is your first year at this school. Like, are you going to be here for four years? He's still there in this job, and he's still in the same job. I was like, so hesitant to be like, yeah, it's his first year. Like, yeah, be here. So every time I see him at an event, he's like, I'm still in the job. I was like, You are Man. Like he said, he hugs me every time he's I can't believe I missed out on you. I was like, You were too honest. So like, you told me to the other school.

Amy Bryant: 18:05

So it's like, I always tell people, like, be open to like you when you really break it down, like you can have just you can have sometimes more success on the field and in, like, postseason play at a division two or Division three. And like, when you look at like, long lasting, like memories and experiences, to me, that was important, as opposed to, you know, what division, or what the four letters on my sweatshirt said, yeah, that was important to me. Like that was, I wanted to be part of those things well, and, youknow, like, where, I coach for as long as I did. I was there for a long time too, just like that. Coach couldn't, couldn't, never get away to, never want to, to be honest. But you know, all the players, not all of them, but, but we, we had our fair share of success and won a few national titles. And those players can walk away saying, I want a national title. You know, it didn't matter that it was a division three school national titles, and they're that's what they're saying when they go on their job interviews, and that's what they're talking about. It was incredibly competitive, what what they did, and how they managed that stress, and the journey that they went through and the experiences that they had, what they will always remember, and there is no hashtag, Division three. I didn't play division one in any of those conversations. It's just, you know, it was an incredible experience. We had a post season where a lot of those Division One schools, if they make it to the postseason. They're looking at, you know, potentially their first game, playing against one of the big dogs, quote, unquote, and getting blown out of the water versus, like, you know, the competition, like, like you said, the top 10 division twos could play, you know, against the top or against, you know, any division one. The same thing for me, coaching tennis Division Three tennis, like the top 10 division threes, can compete against just about any mid major, Division one. So

Kyle Gookins: 20:09

yeah, it's so true. And I don't think people realize that is like the life lessons you're getting and experiences experiencing different things at different divisions. It doesn't stop because you went to a division two or division three or a community college. It doesn't just like, go, well, you're at this other division. So these lessons and these experiences don't count and aren't going to help you later on life. I'm like, they definitely like you, just different experiences, like you have a chance to play the NCAA Tournament, or, like you said, quit a national that's incredible, like, that's still really hard to do. I don't think people realize that any division winning a national championships. So I totally agree with you, and I think, and I tell some clients, like they're like, I want to play division one soccer. I understand. I will help you achieve that, but you're going to sacrifice everything else on your needs. Category, like academics are going out the window, location, size of school, like, all right, I'm willing to sacrifice everything just for that division. One thing, I think sometimes they have blinders about it, when it's like, really, you can have these amazing experiences and life lessons and, like, networks of friends and and people. And I just don't think, you I'm sure, like, at your, you know, I'm sure, like, the, you know, the school you're at, the professors would have known all of the girls on the tennis team, and I watched them play. And it's like, think of that experience great. Well, you don't get that.

Amy Bryant: 21:42

Think, don't get that. We had the players on the team invite professors to be guest coaches. They sat on the sidelines. You know, the ton of matches are really long, and these would sit there for, you know, at about hour two, I would look at the professor and say, you can go. I got this. I know you're coaching, guest coaching, but I've got it, you know,

Kyle Gookins: 22:06

it's so true. Yeah,

Amy Bryant: 22:08

they loved it. They ate it up. They loved the, you know, the connection to the program and the players loved that as well. I

Kyle Gookins: 22:16

mean, I did. I went to a smaller d2 and my senior game, my senior seminar teacher sat next to my mom, and he didn't know it was my mom until, like, we got gifts, you know, in our senior game, and I ran over and, like, gave it to her, and he's like, Oh, you're Kyle's mom. Like, I had them in my, you know, my senior seminar class, like, you just, like, to me, it was like, that was cool. Like, he invested in the team just as much as I did, and then I invested in this class. Like, it's such a good relationship to have, you know that I think is important to learn, because then as you grow and you ask for references later on, when you're applying for jobs, like, you know, it's really as an athlete, sometimes athletics define you too much. And it's like, well, all my references are just more people I played with that's like, well, now you have, like an educator that I can provide a reference of a different aspect of you as a person, not just how well you perform on a court or a field or in a pool, absolutely, and they can attest to all the sacrifices that you made and how you're able to balance everything as well with by doing well in their classroom, And the professor knowing how much time you put in outside of the classroom,

Amy Bryant: 23:29

thanks for tuning in for today's play. Join us next time to hear more insights from another outstanding coach. Until then, remember, as you navigate the ups and downs of your child's sports journey. You're not just picking teens, you're building character, fostering resilience and creating lifelong Memories. You