Sweatshirt or Bust with Guest Coach Kyle Gookins

Today's Play: Kyle Gookins shares insights on navigating the recruiting landscape to uncover meaningful opportunities, beyond prestigious school names. He acknowledges that the college recruiting process can be a minefield of parental pressure and misplaced priorities. Amy and Kyle remind parents that it's crucial for student-athletes and their families to focus on finding the right fit - a place where the student can thrive academically, develop as an athlete, and be truly happy.

Today's Coach: Kyle Gookins is a former Division I Head Men's Soccer Coach who currently is the Director of My College Soccer, a college soccer recruiting consulting agency. He has over 23 years of coaching experience at every level of youth and amateur soccer and has also been a US Soccer Scout for the USSF Youth national teams.

To note: The NCAA's partial scholarship limits discussed in this episode will no longer exist as of April 2025 should the House vs. NCAA settlement take effect.  Instead, the new NCAA roster limits will dictate how many players can be on each Division I team, each of whom will be allowed to receive up to a full scholarship + revenue sharing (most sports will continue to divvy out partial scholarships and some institutions will opt out of revenue sharing).  

To learn more about Bryant College Coaching, and download our new e-book, click here or go to www.bryantcollegecoaching.com

Picking Teams: A Playbook for Parents is produced by: Amy Bryant and Sasha Melamud

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Transcript

Amy Bryant: 0:14

So I was sitting on the side of the soccer field watching my rising senior play and talking to some of her other parents just peripherally about the college recruiting process for our boys. You know, nobody wants to divulge too much information, because essentially, we're all competing against each other for potential spots in college rosters, but they also really care about each other, but it's hard because you hear what's happening with the other kids, and you're like, isn't that happening to myself, the parent?

Kyle Gookins: 0:52

The game of like, telephone and like things that happen on the sidelines is so and so's doing this, and so just like, don't look over the fence and like, think about what anyone else is doing, whether they're on the other team or on your own team. It's like, everyone's journey is different, even if they're all if, like, if you were to go to say the number, like, this is kind of bad for like, you were to go to one of the top teams in on the boys side of men soccer College, and then talk to all the players there about their recruiting journey. They're all different. Every single one of them, however, they're all on that team. So it's like, you teams are going to be different, and that's okay, right? Everyone develops differently. Everyone has different choice, like ideas of where they want to go. It's like so easy to get caught up in that world. And I'm sure you had it as a coach too. Coaches get caught up in the world in college, big time, where it's like, Oh, who's recruiting this? Like, what's like? What's that like? This is, and it's like, it's easy to get, kind of get caught up in it, and parents especially. And it's one, it's just all noise, like, you're better off just celebrating other people's successes. If that's what I would that would be my advice to parents is like, celebrate people's successes. If someone succeeds, awesome. It's not in in spite of your child not succeeding. It's not a reflection of you either. Just like that they can get really caught up in, oh my gosh, what someone says this, even like, I get this, I'm sure you do is like parents taking stats and then regurgitating them back to me, like, I have very good friends that are division one college coaches, their kids play soccer, and they just go and sit in the corner in a chair and, like, clap. If there's, like, one expert that should be, like, you know, critiquing an ill they just sit there and clap and grab a Martin, let's go home right after they don't they just understand, like, that's the coach's role you play. You enjoy it off the field, aren't I'm going to be a parent, so it's like, let the let the kids just kind of play like, don't be too over critical of every little step. Especially in the soccer world, some sports are staff driven. So I get that they got a knock on my door full up. Okay, do

Amy Bryant: 3:49

My favorite games watching my children play are the games where I'm sitting in the corner and I have my headphones in, and it's like, you know, and I'm listening to good music, and it's like, I'm watching a performance and I can't hear what all of the other parents are saying, like, particularly now with my kids, my older son, being within recruiting age, and hearing the parents chatter about What schools they're talking to, or what schools they're interested in, or, you know, it's, it's my response to them when they ask, Well, what schools is your son looking at? What schools are people looking at my responses? My son's going to look at a school where he can play college soccer as a freshman, potentially, or he has an opportunity to play shortly thereafter, and where he can get a great education that's going to prepare him for life. And honestly, I mean the education piece should come first, but those are the two factors. I mean, he wants to play college soccer. He is not focused on any kind of label associated with it. It's like, Where can I go? Where I'm going to have a great college experience? I can play. I have a coach that cares about me, believes in me. I have a team that I want to be around. You know, these are all the things that impact happiness, being able to say to your friends at a dinner party that your child is playing Division One, or that he spoke to, you know, Major League Soccer Coach at in passing, you know, things that that's just noise, and you have to silence that noise, because you have to look at what is best for your child and what is going to help your child achieve happiness and calm and and a job in the future.

Kyle Gookins: 5:49

You know, it's so true, and I think that's the piece. Is like, when you really break it down, like, this sport is just something like, it is a game. So it's just like the conduit to help you through that. And like, also learn how to like in a team and operate in a team and function with other people and those things. It's not the be all, end all. So because I totally agree with everything you're saying, because sometimes I'll have clients that will say, like, I only want to play at like, these schools. And I'm like, Okay, that's great. Or, like, you know, they'll look down on these other schools, and I'm like, Why do you not, why do you not, like, small, it's smaller, okay, but you emailed this school that's actually smaller than the schools you're saying are small, yeah, but they're like, a division one and the ACC, so it's not the size of the school, the name of the school. So it's like, I tell some people, like, Hey, if you want to go, I call them the fancy sweatshirt schools. Yeah, do you want to go to a fancy sweatshirt school? Awesome? Like, have a blast. Like, but just know, like, that's one of your big priorities, is like wearing the sweatshirt, and the status of going to that school and that everything else is going to come secondary. We used to say that when I was coaching Charlotte said, Look, because there were other fancy sweatshirts in North Carolina, and Charlotte was kind of like the step rather, we're like, you want to go, like, this is not one of those schools. So if you want to come and be a part of this program and do program and do what we want to do, that's great come be a part. But if you're picking out that sweatshirt, if you're here just to wear it, then this is probably isn't the place for you. But I totally agree with that. Like I think it's like when you understand, because that chatter happens. I had a client. This is both his parents went to Ivy League. They're both orthopedic doctors. They're both very successful in their field. He's a good soccer player, but he was also a good like, cross country guy. So he had to choose, like, what am I going to do? I want to play soccer? Well, none of the IVs was, did he have the soccer opportunity. He could go there, see the legacy, and even started to get in and all that. But he knew he wanted to play soccer for me. He was like, I got four more years. I want to play. Well, there was a local d3 in Texas, out of Austin, and he went and visited it. The coach loved him. Was like, hey, I want to build the team kind of around you, that with, like, the admissions you'll qualify for, like, basically our top scholarship because of your grades. And then they were like, we placed 100% of the pre med students into medical school. He was like, this a no brainer. Like, of course, I'm going to come here. Like, why wouldn't I fulfill all my boxes? But I had a call with someone else on his team, and the dad was like, I can't believe, like, he's not going to like one of these items. And I said, Well, that's his decision to go to this one, and that's really none of your business. I'm not here to talk to you about someone else's kid, but he just got full scholarship to play four years of soccer and his goals get into medical school. It's like, he achieved all his goals. Like, to me, it was like, what an amazing opportunity. And someone like, I can't believe he's not going to one of these Ivy because both his parents, I'm like, he can go to medical school at those places if he wants. I'm sure he'll get it. He's a smart kid. He like, almost ace, the A, C, T, like, he's

Amy Bryant: 9:14

The prestige stage factor. It's mind boggling, to me, the prestige factor and this whole, I mean, for our athletes, the whole sweatshirt or bust kind of mentality, but, but the parents are really driving that too. I mean, I think parents Totally agree. Who are listening? I think you can really be the one that that says, like, hey, let's explore, what are all these options? Because college, the Ivy's the top 50, the top 100 schools in the country has sweatshirt mentality. Schools, they are only getting more and more competitive to get in. So if we can, as parents say, Well, what does this other small you know, d3 have to offer? You?minute. 100% get into med school. That's pretty significant. And, oh, you have all this merit aid for my son too, because he's a great student. I was like, that's, that's a pretty compelling factor, but, but yet I can, I can throw that in front of some parents and have them tell me that they are incredibly offended that I would even suggest the option it's IIactually had a had a parent this past week tell me that that a list that I put together was agut punch. And I'm like, Well, you know, there is a bit of realism involved with some of what we do. And no matter what sport you're playing there, you know, you can reach, we can reach for schools, for sure. But the reality of the situation is, it comes time for, you know, assigning an analyze, which is this week is an analyze period, right? First, first open up. When it comes to this time, do you want your kid to be happy, or do you want your kid to be staff? Because if we're only looking at reaches, if we're only looking at prestige, if we're only looking at sweatshirt schools, we've got the sweatshirt or bust mentality, then our kids going to be unhappy.

Kyle Gookins: 11:08

Totally agree. And I didn't realize this about especially Division three. There are more division three athletes than Division one.

Amy Bryant: 11:15

There's 450 schools ish in Division three. And how many are there in Division one? Do you know? Maybe 290

Kyle Gookins: 11:25

300 I don't know. I did. I had a meeting with, like the DEI NCAA, the head of like diversity, equity and inclusion. And I think, like, the I want to say, I have the I have the stats, it's like, pretty remarkable, like, I want to say there's like, 400,000 student athletes in the NCAA, in Division one. The sport that kind of is the most athletes, of course, is, you know, FBS and FCS is, like, you know,

Amy Bryant: 11:59

pretty big. But

Kyle Gookins: 12:01

like, Division Three, yeah, they have 117,000 athletes. Yeah, in men's sports, in Division One, they have 100,000 Yeah. And then the which I was, like, whoa.

Amy Bryant: 12:17

Like, eye opening, yeah. And

Kyle Gookins: 12:21

on the women's side, it's actually almost exactly tied. They're off by like, 4000 because one has a few more, and I think they're trying to balance out all that

Amy Bryant: 12:32

other football, yeah. Well, like,

Kyle Gookins: 12:34

That's it, yeah. And I think I didn't realize that I was like, there are so many division three opportunities

Amy Bryant: 12:42

well, and the important thing to note about division three, while Division Three does not have athletic scholarships, between 70 and 80% of division three athletes receive some form of merit aid. So there so to get back to where we started, how important is your academics? Well, when you're, you know, looking at money, you know, there's a lot of money out there, and not only that, we don't really talk about stacking opportunities with money too. So your academics can help you to get even more of the athletic aid in Division One and

Kyle Gookins: 13:17

The way I coined it to the boys yesterday is I Division two.

Amy Bryant: 13:20

Right? Can you perform there? basically said, better your academics are the more doors

Kyle Gookins: 13:21

Yes, like that, you're doing players and that are open. Yep, that's great. Just you have more and more opportunities to more your you know, your academics drop injustice if you're bringing them in, and then if this school those doors closed. There are just some schools that won't you coach at a high, you know, high academic division three. I coach at a high academic division one. To me, it was the first thing I is too much for them, it's just too rigorous. That's not, that's looked at. Should I even watch this player? Right? Matter how much I like them? Athlete, if I can, if they can't, get into school, wasn't and I tried to tell them this yesterday, it's not even just getting into school. Will you thrive at the school? not, as a coach, you should try to balance that so players, it's the same thing. Like, you want to find that balance, but, yeah, I was like, you want to open more doors and close more doors academically? But, yeah, do you want to talk about, I love that. I love the scholarship. Because, especially most an ideal soccer they're equipped. So it's all percentages, and it's all every scholarship is broken up and this and what stacking is. And, you know, stacking, so you were at, you know, A, d3, just all merit and need based, basically right, merit, aid and need based. I was at, you know, two different division, ones and one of the I was at a state, big state school, and we offered, I was there for almost nine years. One person got academic money in my nine years. So everyone else was either on athletic scholarship or on nothing, because it's a state school in state, you know, relatively inexpensive, but still, like it was, you know, it was, you're dealing with small percentages, like, it wasn't big. Now, when I went, you know, the other division one I was at, it was smaller, high academic, a lot more expensive, private school, but you could stack academic aid and athletic aid, and I think I could make things look like full rides even though they weren't right. That makes sense. So I knew if I could, if you know, as a and this is in men's soccer, at least, even women's soccer sending, if you you know in a high academic private school, if you're hitting certain academic goals, whether your test scores and your GPA, you can qualify for so much merit aid. So what that is for the person who doesn't understand, there's been a like, there's athletic aid that comes out of the scholarship 9.9 or however many scholarships that school has comes out of that budget. Then you can stack academic aid on top of that to make up the difference. Right? Are some schools out there that can do it, and there are some schools that can't correct it's like my school. So it's important when you're going through this, and if you have good grades, and you're, you know, talking to a high academic school to ask them, Are you guys able to stack? Like, that's I always tell boys, I'm like, ask early. So, you know, I usually tend to know something like, they can stack or they can't stack. So like, for your, you know, just so you're aware they're stacking and not stacking. So only caveat with that, because this happened to me as a coach, is if you're at a place that stacks and your GPA drops, this is when it gets tricky. Either the school then gives honors the merit aid and accounts against the scholarship budget, or you're on the hook for it, yeah, so, like, that's really important. If you're going,

Amy Bryant: 17:03

What do you mean on the hook for it? When you say you're on the hook, the student is, they have to come back to school.

Kyle Gookins: 17:08

They would, they would be responsible for that, the difference in them. So say you had, you know, you were getting, these are just made up figures. Say you were getting$15,000 merit aid, and your scholarship was 20,000 athletic well, your GPA drops below that threshold, and then, you know, they basically say, like, all right, going into next year, that you know, 15,000 merit aid is either going to count against the scholarship budget on the athletic side, or as a coach, I went to the player and said, I'll do this for one year, but if you don't pick it up, I'm going to count it again. You're going to have to pay it and luckily, he did get it back up. Like he was like, I'm giving you a second chance, but then So, but yeah, I was like, if you and I met with his parents, and was like, here's the reality. Like, I'm doing, giving him a second chance, and if he doesn't bring his grades up, then I to me, I don't want to reward that behavior. So he did very well. He just made a mistake. He said college, college athletes, you know? But, yeah, that's how it that's how that marinade and the staff can change.

Amy Bryant: 18:14

Well, there's so many different there's so many different layers to that, too. I just want to break it down for anyone who's listening. So it's not that the student, if their GPA drop, that they have to, like, repay it, just in the next year, they're going to be having to put the bill a lot, you know, it's going to be a lot more expensive bill than they thought they would do. So that's one piece of it, but with you taking care of it out of your scholarship budget, if you didn't have any extra scholarship money, you only had the 9.9 you would not have been able to do that for Amy, right?

Kyle Gookins: 18:47

That's correct. That is exactly right. Luckily, I had it, and it wasn't like a huge dent at the budget. But yeah, so, I mean, I could have very easily just said, I'm sorry, you've got to pay that 15k That's an extra 15k you weren't expecting to pay, right? That's so that's when it comes back to, like, how important the academic side was, because it's, like, so important, yeah. But he did change. And, you know, he was actually, like, a great yeah. He completely changed that year as a person and as a player. So it was like a success story, but that little bit was like, Oh man, all right, it was a reality check for him.

Amy Bryant: 19:26

Yeah, I'm sure we both got a lot of fun success oh

Kyle Gookins: 19:30

my gosh, oh my gosh. I could, I think I could talk for like, 12 straight hours about unique success stories that the on straight B can do there, those are the most fun ones to talk about, right? Yeah,

Amy Bryant: 19:42

Yeah, so that parents can create their own success stories at home by paying attention to their child's happiness, trying to create the happiness for them and make life easy in any way, but by paying attention to the happiness and keeping them in places where they're happy, they're challenged and they're excited and they're stimulated and all that.

Kyle Gookins: 20:10

Like, I totally agree with you, and I think it's like, you have to break it down and just look at like, yeah, are they happy in what they're doing? If they're unhappy, then, okay, there needs to be a change. But like, if they're happy in doing what they're doing a minute, and then, like, they keep progressing, then maybe they're happy the next. It's like, it's find out, like, what truly makes them happy and feel valued and belong. And I always tell these stories because I went to a division two state school, played soccer, but they got one of the one of the alums that, like I worked for, is the Stanford head coach. He went to a division two state school, and he's the Stanford head coach. Like my wife works at an amazing my wife works for one of the biggest tech companies in the world, Google. She went to Winthrop University as, like, an education major. So it's like, it's not always linear, and it's, it's more about the experience and feeling valued than like, I think that's such like, are you valued at a place? Is it matching your mission and values, and do you feel loved and loved? I think like that should be like, the top priority, and then, like, Okay, what letters are after the name of the school is like the next but I just

Amy Bryant: 21:26

Yeah, and I think it's the same in use for us. It's the same thing sometimes. I mean, I think that value,because when we strive for the elite schools with our kids who are great students in their you know, in their home territory, maybe their top 5% maybe their top 10% then they wind up getting into these elite schools. Okay? Because we push them there. We push them there. Well, they're not, they're no longer top 5% or 10% the top 5% 10% and that's spread out, and your child is suddenly feeling, perhaps a little insecurity about their place and in the school academically, and that is not a an environment that necessarily fosters growth. It fosters competition, it fosters the fight to get it back, and it fosters one of the mental health challenges, because suddenly they're not going to be getting into medical school because they're not able to pass the intro to chemistry class. They were there with the top 5% or scarcity mindset, right?

Kyle Gookins: 22:39

So, yeah, scarcity of like, well, I have to do this and cling to this. Like, this is the only way. It's like, I couldn't agree more. It's, it's, it's so true. I think, especially, I think you said early on, of people thinking what the grass is greener at these places, and doing this, and I've been fortunate to coach, like a lot of places and clubs, and they're all very similar. Everything's very similar, like training locations, like it's all very

Amy Bryant: 23:10

simple, very similar. Same way. There's still influence games. There's still games that you blow out other I mean, it's still, it's still, you know, it's playing the sport, and it's not, it's about what you gain. It's about the values that you learn through that experience. And again, you know, back to the kids going to the small private school, and like he will thrive in that environment, become the cream of the crop. There you will, you know, again, get into magical like your wife went to Winthrop Nationals at Google and she's, would that have happened if she had gone to Princeton from believe not. I mean, you don't know. But like, you know, I know a lot of parents get stuck on all the networking opportunities at these prestigious schools, research shows that the the ranking of their school has less to do with a student's future success. What actually is much more impactful is the quality of a student's engagements, no matter where they go. So if they're involved in something and they're thriving in what they're involving, they are more likely to be successful later on. That's how I take it, and that's where I see college athletics falling in. Let's find a place where these kids can be successful, be a part of something great, not sitting on the bench, but they're actually participating. If they are sitting on the bench, then obviously we want to be, you know, good team players. You know, this is something that is on the bench, but let's not target that as our goal. And I'm just, I want to end with one thing, because we've been talking for a while, but I have a one of my student athletes I'm working with now. You know, I could not get him off of a couple sweatshirt schools couldn't get him off, and he and I've been working with him for two years, and he's like, I'm gonna get there. I'm gonna get there. Gonna get there. So this was a sport. I'll just say it's tennis or tennis court. So ranking is really important, right? So I'm gonna get my ranking up. I'm gonna get my ranking up. So coaches will look for you. First of all, there's only so much time that you have to get a ring. I love the ambition to get it up. You know, I know what the probability chances of getting it to where you need it to go. So let's at least have some backup options, options in place, and let's communicate with these backup options so that you know they become real viable solutions to this. So you have a place to go, refuse, refuse, refuse. It will be this school, this school or bus amount. And now he's at the point where he's applied early decision without coaches support to a team that he's hoping to get coach's support in the next month. And the anxiety is unreal between between him and his mom and their you know, and I feel terrible for the way that they're feeling. I know it's a horrible feeling, but we didn't have to come to this point. There were plenty of other coaches that would have loved to talk to him at great schools where he could thrive and really, really become something from there. So

Kyle Gookins: 26:17

yeah, and I think even to bring it back to, like, where we started, like what your tagline was, but like pushing people into, like, thriving places, and then being engaged and all that, like in the college I think they're the same in youth sports, just, I would say that's the same exact thing, like, you need to be engaged in your team, like an active member thrive, like, no matter the level or the where it is or the prestige of it, like, that's the biggest front page, and I think that is so important, especially new sports, is that because, like, what the anxiety you just described is the conversation out of my own group, he's having the same anxiety over High School. Feel for him. I'm like, he got really upset when I told him was only, you know, this many scholarships in men's golf. He was like, what, yeah, like to tell you this, like, yeah. I was like, the nice thing is, you're in California, there's a lot of state schools that are really relatively inexpensive. Like, I would start, you know, looking at those things like, oh, like, I was like, one thing is, like, a gut punch. I think the end, she was like, look at all these private schools. Here's the tuition. This is what it's gonna cost. Hate to pay this. So, yeah, I love that. I love that stat because it is so true. It's like, even outside of sports, I think being engaged, feeling valued, like being supportive and like being able to thrive, like, course, course you're gonna, course you're gonna do better and be more successful. Like, when you put it, when you put it like that, for sure.Makes perfect sense. So I love that I'm gonna tell my wife about that, because she, that's what you literally her whole job is about belonging and inclusion. That's why it's what she does,